I Had Always Just Assumed I’d Spank My Children – One Mom’s Journey to Seeing

This is, quite possibly, the most eloquently written composition on this subject (specifically the Biblical aspect of the subject) that I have ever read.

This woman has two subsequent related posts, of which I will address in separate posts here.  But start with this.. just read and sit with it for the time it chooses to leave you its essence.

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Grace

January 8, 2011 by discipleshipmothering

My Letter to Focus on the Family

Hi,

I am a long time listener and supporter of Focus on the Family. From the time I was a teenager, I listened to and from school and college, collecting much wisdom for the path ahead of me. A strange thing for a teen to do, I guess. But, I truly love the Lord, and wanted His best for my future. I hold a high respect for Dr. James Dobson and his marriage advice. I’ve been very happily married for almost ten years.

However, when I had my first child, Dr.Dobson’s advice nearly broke my heart. I’d always assumed I’d spank, and followed his advice for my spirited 2 year old. I cannot express to you in words how wrong it felt. The spirit of God was convicting me, and this precious son, whom I’d nursed for 21 months, and had continued a very close, in-synch relationship with, even through the addition o a new baby, when he was 28 mos….become afraid and distrustful of me. Not only that, it wasn’t working to improve his behavior. He fit the bill for “strong-willed”, certainly. But, could he be beyond hope, since the very method tailored to his personality wasn’t working?

With much prayer, my husband and I began to research other discipline methods. I came across gentlechristianmothers.com in my search, and discovered some very eye-opening statements about Biblical discipline.

Out son is now 4 yrs old. We are complimented often, at church, by family and friends, and even by strangers, on how happy and well-behaved our children seem. Life is not perfect, and he’s not a perfect child. But, we are a much more peaceful, loving family since learning to discipline with the Grace of Jesus.

What I see lacking on your website is acknowledgement that these verses in Proverbs may not mean what we think they mean. You can do the research yourself and find that there are many reasons to doubt that these are commands to hit children. More than likely, they are wise principles for being a constant source of authority for our children. The OT has many things to say that are covered under grace. Another good example is the treatment of women caught in adultery. We all know how Jesus chose to react. This should be the ultimate example, among many in the NT, of how to apply grace.

I write this because the advice from Dr. Dobson about strong willed children is at worse, very dangerous advice for new parents. And, at the very least, it is impractical and unecessary. I say dangerous because it’s using God’s Word to convince parents they must hit their children. I believe there are FAR more Biblical principles we can apply to child discipline, besides a few commonly misunderstood proverbs, written by a king who ended his life in such disgrace against God, and was held with such irreverence by his own sons  (Solomon). Let’s instead apply the wisdom of Christ, Himself.  How did He disciple? How did He view children? What principles of love, forgiveness, reproof, and correction can we glean from the NT church?

I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind completely about spanking. It is so ingrained in our culture, most people don’t think twice about NOT doing it, as I once thought. However, I hope my letter will at least open the eyes of Focus on the Family and it’s wide-spread influence, to impact the world with Christ’s love.

My husband and I have experienced a total life change, and it has not been easy in the face of criticism. But, thus far, it has been one of the best decisions of our young life. It is my prayer that one day, Dr. Dobson will realize his mistake and change his heart on this subject.

Many Prayers,
(My Real Name)

I’ll keep you posted if I receive a reply.

 

Spanking is Not God’s Will

This means not allowing your child to go down the wrong road that could lead to a premature death.  This has absolutely nothing to do with actual crying as Dobson and many other Christian advocates of spanking believe!  Children need limits.  We wouldn’t let a toddler run out in the street to be run over by a car.  But instead of spanking the toddler, we should firmly tell the toddler that the street is dangerous, and then show the toddler the safe way to cross the street holding onto Mommy or Daddy hands.  Does hitting a toddler really teach him or her why the street is dangerous and how to be safe?  No!  It teaches them that danger makes Mommy and Daddy hurt me.   That Jesus wants me to be hurt when I’m in danger.  Remember, young children cannot make abstract connections like adults can.

 

Please take a moment to read the rest of the article found here, as well as the three that precede it in the series.

Disobedience Doesn’t Exist in Our House

Yes, that is what I said.  Disobedience doesn’t exist in our house.. and yes there is a child in our house. You don’t believe me.  I know. I’ll explain.

By definition, obedience is as follows:

 

1. The act of obeying, or the state of being obedient; compliance with that which is required by authority; subjection to rightful restraint or control. Government must compel the obedience of individuals.

 

2. Words or actions denoting submission to authority; dutifulness.

 

3. A following; a body of adherents; as, the Roman Catholic obedience, or the whole body of persons who submit to the authority of the pope.

Do I hope my child will grant me what I ask of her?
Do I want her to behave in a way consistent with what I have (hopefully) shown her as considerate behavior?
Am I of the opinion that I should attempt to maintain harmony by exhibiting healthy boundaries and giving her the necessary tools, from the moment of birth, to enable her to interact in her environment with ease?

Yes.

Do I expect obedience? No.
Do I expect compliance? When necessary for safety or sanity, only.
Will I routinely explain my reasons behind the expectations, boundaries, guidance, and requests? With every sentence I speak, with every expectation or request I communicate, I do indeed offer the “rest of the story” for her to ponder and become aware of.

Why do I do this? First, because it is what I would hope of another person causing the same constraints to come over me. Second, I believe my choice to provide her full, detailed explanations of her world gives her the opportunity and option to ascertain for herself what she will take in.  Therefore, even in compliance, she exercises her free will. It is in this honoring of her autonomy, she will build her self esteem, increase her intelligence, and improve her emotional confidence and stability. If she does not choose compliance when necessary, she will, by default, still increase her wisdom, improve her ability to interact on an emotional plane, and will, in fact, build her confidence and self image… and if she refuses, she’ll learn she must substantiate that choice with reasons within her own mind that compel her opposition.

She also learns that her actions always have a result. If her choice results in a situation where she must build her patience, she gains.  If her choice engages others, she will observe their responses and the result is she grows. If her choice results in the need for her to tend to an effort, she develops focus and stamina – and in all likelihood, enhances her imagination powers.

We have chosen to walk alongside our child, as a partner and guide when useful, and encouraging her to grow within the parameters of her own determining.  We believe that a human choosing compassion, respect, consideration, and generosity has much value.

Retelling here, a story that illustrates the value of not causing blind obedience to be the driving force in your home.   Let’s take a look at the massacre in My Lai, Vietnam.This horrifying display of blind submission resulted in the slaughter of an entire village in Vietnam; nearly 500 people were killed.

 

The troops sent into the village were expecting a battalion of Vietcong forces but were instead presented with a village of women, elderly men, and children. The company had been previously instructed to kill anyone they encountered and proceeded to do so, with a few lapses in their blind faith.   The leader of the company, an inexperienced captain by the name Calley, was later tried for the murder of 107 unarmed civilians. He blamed his actions on the blind compliance that members of the United States forces are expected to give their superior officers. He described the concept as a ‘shoot first, complain later’ process. His actions, although explicitly illegal by the law of the United States service, seemed completely appropriate to him. He was merely obeying a senior officer, an action repeatedly drilled into the heads of American troops.

 

Our education system is not far off in requiring and thereby creating humans who do not think for themselves.  Children are conditioned not to question the authorities, the routine, the expectations, or the assignments they are given. They are expected to blindly accept that ‘adults know best’. This typical shepherd leading the sheep routine results in a completely disinterested society and a youth that is inactive and dependent.

So, how is it that we have no disobedience in our house? Because there is no opportunity for it to occur: obedience is not an expectation.  My daughter has the space to choose her path, and her parents hold the willingness to allow her the space to experience the results of those choices.  It’s not about who’s boss and who is inferior in our home.  It’s not a hierarchy here.  It’s about mutual respect, love, and exploration of life.  It’s growing in courage, confidence, and stability… It’s trusting the process.

As she grows, we will grow with her.  Through communication and empathic awareness, we will all experience and develop, and the results of choices we each make will shape us. We will continue to impart the value of compliance in certain scenarios, where the cause for compliance, and the result of compliance is positive, rooted in respect, and brings enhancement to one’s life.  We will also communicate the value of knowing oneself, by demonstrating the value we hold independently for ourselves.  Believing and asserting that each of us, and our perspectives, is equally worthy.  And imparting, with great hope, a deep sense of discernment for what is just, what is honorable, and above all, what is compassionate.

The resounding benefit is simple:  Regardless of her choices, she learns, and her wisdom increases. So does ours.

Dysfunctional King; Queen Waif; Child Broken

S O U R C E (for comments)

The Quiverfull movement saddles women with a life of submission and near-constant pregnancies. One mother explains how she embraced the extreme Christian lifestyle — and why she left.

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One woman’s response –

Nope. Men NEED Women as partners, not servants! We get along better NOW because we treat each other as equals; we’ve learned to share the load with each other, and work together.

While the womens submissive role is the most awful, we often forget that it’s also very stressful to be the SOLE breadwinner and leader of the family. When you have no one to help make critical family decisions or help with needed income, it’s easy to get overwhelmed. I can see how a submissive mate could be resented and seen as “adding to the load”, “less than”, “weak”, “childish”- no matter how hard they work at home (womens work is devalued, no matter what the religious say). The more submission, the more stress on the man. Especially the many men that aren’t cut out for the bread-winner role!

When gender roles are so strict, the man is not allowed to be anything less than the ideal masculine provider, and they aren’t allowed to question this set up, so many are furious but don’t realize why. Add bad advice (be more submissive to your man! Husband rebuke your wife!), a belief system that tells you divorce goes against god, and you have a recipe for the resentment, disrespect and anger that fuels abuse.

Why you would WANT this, now that women don’t have to live like this, is beyond me. The frog in the kettle is all I can say….

And another –

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Giving your spouse all or most of the power in the relationship WILL eventually make that person–whether male or female, straight or gay– abusive. This situation can be compounded when the husband has all the power because men biologically already have so much of what is, in some situations, an advantage: they typically are physically stronger than women and do not give birth to kids. Women may feel tied to their man because they are pregnant and unable to work. What makes good relationships work: cooperation, trust, compromise, and mutual respect. NOT kowtowing and submission.

A man’s opinion –

All I can tell you as a single guy is the thought of the Widdle Christian Wifey (“What is Thy will, Milord Husband? How may I better Submit?”) both attracts and repels me. Attracts because after all the times I’ve been burned by women, she’d be “safe” and I know she wouldn’t dare ditch or dump me like the others. Repels because you can’t have any respect for a doormat like that and I KNOW in the absence of such respect I’d start trying to throw my weight around — Hard. Then harder because in the absence of respect I’d start thinking about payback for what other women have done to me, and things would just deteriorate from there. Yes, the attraction of “safety” and finally being able to marry would be there, but so would the danger of me going out of control in the absence of any respect. The archetype of female which has always attracted me is the “Cuddly Amazon” — soft and nurturing, but with a core of tungsten steel and strength of personality. Widdle Christian Wifey (TM) has no core. All nurturing, no strength. And I can’t take on all the strength for two without breaking myself.

S O U R C E

Which Kid Should Never Have Been Born?

by Vyckie

I’ve heard it too many times to be shocked anymore, but I am still dismayed by those who check out No Longer Quivering and come to the conclusion that those of us who are telling our Quiverfull stories of spiritual abuse regret having had so many children.  One woman whom I considered my friend wrote:

Question to Vyckie: Which of your 7 children would you go back and kill in order to not have liven the life you lived up to this point? Maybe Wesley? Bet your life would be different. I wonder how your kids feel knowing you wish they hadn’t been born because you would not choose that lifestyle ever again.

S O U R C E

The fact that someone is capable of formulating this sort of question demonstrates their level of delusion.

Please take a moment and read the rest of the article (click SOURCE above).

Ok, This Just Isn’t Right

Go -> SEE THIS (click)

Note #7 (and #8)

The title and description alone grab my attention and wake up the sexual side in my head.

I’m fascinated in a morbid sort of way about the details of just exactly how to “set up the scene” for a planned spanking.  Now, you tell me how this could possibly be something beneficial to a child.  Again, as stated before, I have never used spanking as an adult for sexual enjoyment, have never spanked my child, won’t ever spank my child, was spanked once with my pants down as a three year old, and have a healthy sex life (for the most part – I have a two year old folks, what can I say).

So, what is it, do you suppose, that is triggered in my head when I see the simplest of words arranged in the following ways?

Spanking positions
This chapter discusses the most common spanking positions.
Spanking techniques
This chapter gives additional “how to” recommendations.

Now, take a look at these letters: The first is a father, a widower who has two daughters, aged 16 and 12.  This is horrendous and my heart breaks for these girls.  Girls, if you ever happen to stumble upon this post, you are most welcome to contact me for support; I will network you with a plethora of people who will stand beside and behind you and give you a way to end the madness he’s forcing.

I am a 38 year-old widower with two daughters: 16 and 12. My younger daughter recently landed on your site and showed it to me. Thank you for providing such a well thought-out presentation. I find that I agree with most of what you say. But I have a couple of exceptions.

First, I don’t agree with your “same sex” spanking concepts. Yes, I recognize the danger: a father spanking his daughter might cause some sexual response. But a frank discussion about the difference between having feelings and acting on those feelings should deal with that issue. And these days, there’s so much homosexuality on the TV and elsewhere that I’m not sure “same sex” spankings wouldn’t face the same danger anyway.

My wife died 4 years ago. Even before that, whenever the girls needed a spanking I was the one who spanked them. The Bible holds fathers responsible for spanking their children (See Ephesians 6:4 for example). Abdicating that responsibility is not an option. As long as the father is in the home, it’s his job to do whatever spanking is needed.

Second, I see a problem with your definitions of cooperative and uncooperative children. My girls kind of fit your definition of cooperative children: they know that I love them and they agree that they need to be spanked when they misbehave. And they don’t generally “resist” being spanked for a very good reason: I use the “bare hand on bare bottom” method, but I have a little switch that I reserve for really serious misbehavior.

Once, when my older daughter was 15, she started trying to hit me while I was taking her up to the master bedroom for a spanking. I simply asked her, “Do I need to get The Switch?” Her reaction was a frantic “Nooooooo!” and there was no more problem with resistance.

AHHHHHRGHGHGHGHGHGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!  That 15 year old girl is nothing short of a young woman and what this father is doing is terribly, terribly wrong.  God, there goes my stomach (and God’s too) again.  AND IN THE NAME OF GOD!!!

WRONG

WRONG

WRONG

Twisted, stupid, DAMAGING, wrong!

If either of these two girls decided to tell their school counselor (given that it is a public school that doesn’t also have its head up its ass) that their father spanks them, especially bare, the spankings would cease.  The father would come under investigation and the girls would be given ongoing support and counseling.  I would throw the father into a pit with a bunch of gay men and let them spank him until he couldn’t manage himself anymore.

How pathetic.


S O U R C E
If I were growing up today, Mother could post on parenting web forums about how “effective” spankings are as discipline for her daughters. She could brush aside concerns about emotional harm saying “an hour after I spank her, Carol is happily playing or doing her chores.” She could talk about my good grades in school. She could talk about how polite I am and respectful to my elders, and how she gets compliments from other adults about what a good girl I am in public. And if anyone tried to warn her that she might give her child a fetish, she could laugh and say, “Carol would never turn out like that. She hates to be spanked!” And nothing she said would be a lie.

Now I am retired, unmarried, childless, on medication for depression. At a tender age I used my budding sexuality to cope with something I didn’t know how else to cope with. And it has left its mark on me forever. I’ve been paying the price all my life and I will never stop paying. I am unmarried because the circuits in my brain that should have been used for romance were vandalized by spankings instead. I am childless because I never married. So there is a direct link between my spankings, how I coped with them, and my being sexually abnormal, and hence never marrying and having any children of my own.

Not all of the harm is sexual in nature. An “it made me what I am today” pattern emerges whenever someone unexpectedly confronts me in an angry way about something I did. I have a bad habit of saying the first rationalization that pops into my mind, sometimes even lying. It just blurts itself out of me. And I don’t know how to change. It goes back so far. It is a habit I learned as a preschooler that sometimes saved me from a bottom warming. It usually didn’t, but something that works only occasionally is better than nothing at all.

Another lifelong bad effect of my spankings is that when someone orders me to do something in a stern authoritarian voice, I usually just cave in and do it even if I don’t feel right about what I am doing. It just happens, seemingly by itself. And it all goes back to my earliest years. Growing up in my “traditional values” family, children did as they were told and didn’t talk back. If you did, Mommy would turn you across her knee, pull down your panties and “teach you a lesson” right then and there. I sure learned my lessons! The trouble is, how do you unlearn that lesson as a grownup out in the world who has to stand up for herself? I just hate myself now whenever I realize that once again I let myself be someone’s doormat.

Here are some interesting reads – they are written for the purpose of satisfying the erotic desires of adults, and are on the topic of spanking.  Now, call me crazy, but the letters found on the Chastise With Love site, the descriptions for technique and position, and the fictional accounts found below seem to have an eerie similarity.

http://www.smilingwithteeth.com/janitorium/storiesJS/mommyithurts.html

http://www.textfiles.com/sex/EROTICA/B/boy.txt

Were you spanked as a child? How did you feel about it then and how about now?

See what it does to you.

A Girl’s List – Teaching Subjugation, Generation After Generation

Oh, what a lucky man he should see himself as, if he is to find a woman who thinks he is always right, casts no judgement, uses no discernment or wisdom, and serves him under God.

Try to get through this… send your constructive comments.  Please pick a single sentence or concept to respond to in each response.

Girls, this is a heaping pile of don’t fall for it.  If you haven’t found the right person yet, enjoy your singlehood.  Maybe I should start writing about relationships in general… I’d love to get people talking.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/user/NGJMinistries#p/u/u-all/0/xbJPwXVtmKw]

Quiverfull… Quiverful… Grab a blanket, light a fire, and stop quivering

I can hear responses the already, “This has nothing to do with raising children.”

I believe it does.  I see an integral and deeply woven internal, far and eternally reaching link… and I have never read anyone articulate these thoughts so superbly.

The truth is, not all men are cut out for leadership in the home or church. And for those with controlling, punitive, and demanding tendencies, the practice of patriarchy in the home will only exacerbate their insatiable egos and lend an air of spiritual credence to their tyranny and abuse in the name of “protection” and spiritual covering.

S O U R C E

The truth is, not all men are cut out for leadership in the home or church. And for those with controlling, punitive, and demanding tendencies, the practice of patriarchy in the home will only exacerbate their insatiable egos and lend an air of spiritual credence to their tyranny and abuse in the name of “protection” and spiritual covering.

The truth is, the woman who aspires to be a Proverbs 31 wife is setting herself up for failure. Often I have agonized over the overwhelming burden expressed by wives and mothers who feel they are not meeting the standard ~ they try so hard, and yet ~ there’s not enough of one woman to go around. Even with the help of the older daughters, the workload is ceaseless and the demands on her time and energy are bound to leave her feeling inadequate. Must be her lack of faith. Perhaps what she needs is to read another Vision Forum book or attend an Above Rubies conference wherein she’ll discover the KEY to making it all work, getting it all done.

Seriously ~ what Mothers of Many need is RELIEF ~ not another “revelation” about what truly constitutes the godly wife and mother. Not another pep-talk from Nancy to inspire her to “present her body a living sacrifice.” No more visions and bible verses to load her with guilt when she somehow doesn’t manage to reproduce the Garden of Eden within her godly home.

In the patriarchal world which I will no longer take part of, the Commanding Officers (the men) are forever waging war against the world and the devil. Wives and children are useful as foot soldiers and arrows in this daily battle for the Kingdom of God. Should a mother die in childbirth, she is hailed as a faithful, dedicated woman ~ hers is a martyr’s death. But if she should struggle ~ if she fails to reverence her husband despite his imperfections and failures to love her as Christ loves the church ~ if she should dare complain that she’s tired and overwhelmed ~ if she has a healthy self-preservation factor ~ or should she be a thinking woman who just can’t manage to adorn herself with that highly prized “meek and quiet spirit” ~ then she is a rebellious Jezebel ~ a reproach on the testimony of Christ. Likewise, the children are valued only in as much as they conform to the lifestyle chosen for them by their parents.

And here is where the children and their well being enter the scene…

It seems crazy that thousands of years later, we should be trying to emulate the family structure and gender roles of an ancient society which viewed women and children as property. Truthfully, I’m kind of pissed that I so willingly co-operated in my own oppression for so many years ~ I allowed myself and my children to be used to fulfill an egotistical fantasy of a man who desired to be king of his castle.

Patriarchy is a pretty sweet deal ~ for the man who gets a Proverbs 31 wife and a quiverfull of children like olive branches around his table. In that family set-up, Daddy reigns supreme. I know, I know ~ the teaching is that it’s actually the Lord Jesus whom the wife and children serve when they submit to and obey the father. And when I think about it ~ that’s so twisted! How convenient for the man that all this is clearly spelled out in the Word of God.

I suppose I shall have to expound upon my point and direction here, but first I must finish her article and let it sit for a while.  I hear this woman as if she were inside my head, and I have never once given a moment’s thought to the belief system she struggled in.  Well, not until now, at least.  So, I can’t quite formulate a logical response, mine would be entirely emotionally driven at this moment… give me a few.