This means not allowing your child to go down the wrong road that could lead to a premature death. This has absolutely nothing to do with actual crying as Dobson and many other Christian advocates of spanking believe! Children need limits. We wouldn’t let a toddler run out in the street to be run over by a car. But instead of spanking the toddler, we should firmly tell the toddler that the street is dangerous, and then show the toddler the safe way to cross the street holding onto Mommy or Daddy hands. Does hitting a toddler really teach him or her why the street is dangerous and how to be safe? No! It teaches them that danger makes Mommy and Daddy hurt me. That Jesus wants me to be hurt when I’m in danger. Remember, young children cannot make abstract connections like adults can.
A beautiful reflection of a heart wounded… Please take a moment to read and reflect on your own life. I also want to encourage any of you who feel so compelled to reach out and share yourself with this writer.
Spanking. A huge hot button topic. I know. And now, with post #1, being somewhat normal, and post #2, being an emotional cry, I figured it was okay to break up the hot button topics in post #3.Knowing that my parents loved me, and would do anything for me, and yet still processing how spanking affected me is a very painful process. I feel like I am the problem. I feel like the feelings and effects spanking had on me are unique to only me, and that if I were just “better” in some way, I would not have the severe emotional trauma from such a “normal” childhood event. To put this post in perspective, let me just spend a few moments to brag on my wonderful parents. My dad is a wonderful Godly man. He isn’t afraid to take the uncomfortable road. He is more generous that most people I know. He is deeply committed to taking care of the needy, and reaching people with the gospel of Christ. I am, and always have been, a daddy’s girl. <3 I remember going on daddy daughter dates.. I remember being a able to cry in his arms. I remember how excited I would be when he would get home. My daddy was always the #1 man in my life, until I met Pine.. And now, he still is very important to me. I want his approval, and I have strode to get it my whole life. I feel safer, and more secure if he tells me I am doing well.
My mom is a very strong woman, with a heartbreaking past. No one should be able to be as healthy as her considering what she has gone through. My mom probably would understand the deep soul searching I am doing now, if it didn’t hit her personally, because I have seen her do the same things. Evaluate the way she was raised.. Try to keep the good, and get rid of the abusive, unhealthy patterns she was raised with. My mom was committed to our characters no matter the cost. And she has cried many tears, because she felt as if she never lived up to it. I can totally understand that feeling now as I look at my own little boy, and think of all the mistakes I have made in such a short time.
Spanking. To this day, we (my parents and I) do not agree on the topic of spanking. I can point you to a hundred different studies that show why spanking is unhealthy.. I can show you a hundred different stories like mine to show how it affects people. Not all people, but enough to make me think twice. But that’s not the purpose of this blog. For once, I am not going to defend what I have come so strongly to believe. Instead, I am just going to write out my feelings. My vulnerabilities, my anxieties, my memories. This is part of a process towards healing..
I remember being spanked often as a child. Sometimes several times a day. I remember the panic that would well inside of me as I was forced to bend over. I remember instinctively, uncontrollably rolling off the side of the bed to avoid the spoon, or belt, or hanger. I remember trying so hard to stay still as they hit me.. Because I knew that if I did move, I would get more. I remember crying out in fright, frustration and anger “I am not trying to move! I can’t help it!” And I remember getting the extra lashes anyways. My parents did spank in anger, but some of the worst spankings I got were done “correctly” My parents were not visibly angry. They explained in quiet tones why I deserved what was coming. They explained that it would all stop as soon as I repented. The amount of shame… A sick, dark cloud of shame would hang over my soul. I am not talking about my conscience here. I think that the word shame means something very different than guilt. Guilt is something you feel because you committed a wrong action. Shame is something you feel, because you are worth less.. Your very value is defined by an action, or how someone perceives you. I would be spanked, a minimum of 10 times. That seemed to be the starting point to the best of my memory. When I got better at staying still, it would only be 10. Otherwise it would be until I had received 10 in a row without moving away from the blows. Every time I flinched to hard and moved to the side, the count would restart. After the spanking was over, my parents would hold me. I remember being terrified, humiliated, and scared to do anything that would displease them in the least, lest the nightmare repeat itself. I would sit in their laps and pretend I was sorry. I learned that tears of “repentance” really made them happy. I became a fake repenter. I felt bad about what I had done, don’t get me wrong. I even wished I had not done it. But not because it was wrong.. But because with the punishment came the terror of shame. The sick feeling of worthlessness, and a total and complete failure as a person.
This dynamic I think, is why I am having such a hard time understanding the grace of God. God does not love me because I “perform”. And God’s love does not change when my actions or attitudes are not pleasing to him. God’s love is constant. I learned the opposite.. That acceptance and otherwise love is conditional on performance. And I also learned that if the person you were trying to please thought you were doing right, then you could earn your acceptance, and still behave the way you liked.
There is more than that though. A darker side of spanking. One I have voiced very rarely, and one that is deeply humiliating. And that is the sexual side of spanking. Even typing this out makes me shake a little bit, and the nerve endings in my bottom twitch uncomfortably. Its something people don’t talk about. But I am not alone in the way it felt. Before I had any idea what sex was, or how different parts of our bodies reacted in different ways, I always felt… encroached upon whenever someone even brushed up against my butt. Spanking was a nightmare because of it. I felt dirty, and deeply humiliated by the act of bending over, and willingly allowing someone else to invade that which was so deeply private to me. By humiliated, I don’t just mean embraced.. I mean a feeling so strong and dark it would make me physically ill. I don’t remember any of my siblings struggling so much with staying in the one position while the spanking was administered. But I literally could.not. stay still without trying to move away. It took years of training before I could force myself to, and even then my entire body would flinch. I didn’t realize until after my husband tried to show me sexual attention with my butt just how unsafe I feel. I have a hard time when he shows me intended and healthy sexual attention, because every time he touches me, it throws me down across a bed, and my whole body flinches to get away. The invasion of the basic boundary of my body was devastating.
My parents did not sexually abuse me. There was not one spanking that was intended in any ill manner. I know this with 100% certainty. I also know they have no idea how it felt. And I have no intention of telling them. It would cause to much heartache. If they even believed me. Processing these feelings has been very hard. Actually confronting them, instead of shoving them so far under the surface has been deeply painful. But even now, I know my parents loved me. They sacrificed, money, convenience, and so much more for us kids. They did many things right. They taught us the value of hard work and honesty. They taught us that wrong actions often have unpleasant consequences. And they never once fathomed a simple routine “godly” spanking could cause so much harm.
That thought scares the bejabbers out of me. Aspen! My son.. The one I would die for much in the same way my parents loved me. How is he going to understand and feel the things I do only for his benefit? Am I going to so deeply invade his personal boundaries, to where the simple thought of it makes him quake and shiver with fear, hopelessness, worthlessness?
Not all children have such a harsh reaction to spanking. But if you presented everything in this post to my parents, I am sure they would say with certainty it never affected their children this way.
I have so much fear of hurting Aspen unintentionally. But yesterday I realized something. God is forcing me to deal with the hurt and pain I suffered. He is working healing in my heart. I have forgiven my parents, and love them dearly. Really, what God is doing in me now, is a fulfilment of his promise to my parents. He is being faithful to them to fix the mistakes that they made. I can only trust that he will do the same for Aspen and Sappling, and any of my other kids. There is no such thing as a parent that will not cause their children emotional distress. That I am sure of. I am equally convinced that God has the power to heal the wounds I make in my children, that I have no idea of. He is faithful! And that is so encouraging to me.
I don’t think my parents would understand that I am not angry with them if I shared this with them. I don’t think they would understand that my facing and processing this is a sign of His deep and everlasting love and faithfulness not only to me, but to them. I have no desire to hurt them, so I probably will never share this with them. There really is no purpose.
I praise God for the changes he is making in me… And tonight, for the first time, I thanked him for healing the wounds I will inflict on my own children.
A few related posts…
Why Spank? Well, It Works. Embarrassment is a Powerful Tool
Why Timeouts Are Even Worse Than Spanking
Beyond Spanking, Beyond Training: A Look At Our Littlest Minds
Humiliation – Far Reaching Effects on Children, Adults, Society
What follows is an exercise in ostracism, for the purpose of contemplation on the part of anyone who chooses to read on. My only request is that you read the entire post before you form your conclusion.
These are a series of comments/responses from the post found here.
The exercise shown in this exchange goes to demonstrate the topic in question rather effectively. Please know that my harsh tone is not to ridicule or offend the woman to whom I am speaking, but to illustrate a point, by allowing someone else to do it for me.
To conclude this post, with respect being shown to this
woman’s value and autonomy, I will address a couple of her remarks,
in the voice of direct response.
“Yeah, I was pissed b/c you are judging me based on not knowing me and what my situation is and how I raise and discipline my daughter. I’m proud of my husband and I, we are on the same page with raising and disciplining our daughter and we are bringing up a very well-rounded, respectful, happy child! Now do you have power over me??? No. Am I pissed again? No… I realize what you are doing. I respect you and your thoughts and like hearing other people’s thoughts, ideas, research etc, even if I don’t agree with all of it!”
I am not actually judging you. I have questioned you.
I have spoken against something you feel is just fine and you have taken it personally. This is a reasonable response. But I wonder if you might be interested in substantiating your chosen belief and actions, as not being harmful, in response to my assertion that it is, in fact harmful and damaging.
I am happy that you are satisfied with your choices, that your husband and you concur (which makes it a lot easier, definitely), and that you believe your daughter is being properly cared for. However, I still do not approve of, nor condone the use of ostracism or any form of manipulation or abuse. That’s the funny thing about abuse… we all know it causes damage, but we use it in so many different ways that often it is hard to pinpoint or even recognize, until much, much later.
No, I do not know you or your daughter, but I don’t need to either. What I do know is that you use this method, you think it’s just fine, you are willing to defend it in theory (hopefully you’ll substantiate, as mentioned), and that you don’t like it when I turn the method around and you are the target.
Your blog describes an episode of your daughter hitting you. That same post has your description of your assigned consequence, which was one that she was given a choice to allow to occur. She continued hitting you, thereby choosing to test whether you would follow through (the consequence was your refusal to read her a story before bed, as is the routine). Then, after enforcing your threat, you left her alone to cry. Your post indicates her father intervened by showing her security, love, and affection. She accepted his comforting, accepted the consequence of her action, and everyone got some sleep.
S O U R C E
- My question is, why you allowed her to cry alone, after executing her consequence.
- My other question concerns why she was hitting you in the first place.
That said, I choose my beliefs, actions, and values based upon fact, knowledge, and experience.
As you read this, if you are unaccustomed to my beliefs or written tone and rhythm, please go here first. Then, as you read, keep Ken’s comments in mind.
I am in a state of aggravation, spurred by injustice, impossible scenarios, no sleep, trepidation over the damage I may be causing my child with all this transition (moving, traveling), and struggling through a significant crevasse between my husband and I. Right now, I am not whole. I am torn in two, with a thread of goo left dangling in between. Please forgive my attempt at coping by using sarcasm instead of sheer wit and completely pure communication. I’m jaded and in protective mode right now… and as if life isn’t large enough as it is at the moment, I have found myself being expected to conform or defend some of my core beliefs to some very real and large, tangible people (outside my home’s walls, but not far from them). One of the topics is the use of timeouts.
Somehow, me saying that timeouts are torture in my opinion isn’t enough to get the various people to which I refer above to leave me alone.
What is the point of a time out?
From the adult’s perspective, if we’re honest, first and foremost, hopefully the answer to that question is to insist a child realize they have evoked your disapproval by their actions and behaviors. Second, to be completely honest, it is to give the adult a moment’s peace, during which they do not have to contend with the child’s behaviors and actions that are causing frustration.
We accomplish our task by forcing our child to endure rejection, isolation, and dehumanizing “space to think”, which if they had managed to “think” in the first place, they would never have allowed themselves to be forced into the position they found themselves in – the experience of ostracism by a trusted, loved, care giver.
Below you will find links to subsequent posts as I complete them related to the subject, picked apart concept for concept, and sometimes sentence for sentence. I hope you will summon your curiosity and continue the learning process, open your mind to your child’s world view, and soften your heart so that a greater knowledge and understanding might enter your parenting and the future health of your child (and you).
Too spiritual, mystical, out-there talk??
Ok, here’s the same thing without the flowers and fairies: Timeouts cause the brain to sense physical pain because it is in fact, a deliberate action of forced isolation, rejection, and detachment, even at the most “dutiful and appropriate” level. What’s worse, that isolation, rejection, and detachment is being forced upon a child powerless to prevent it by the very entity that is supposed to represent a safe, secure, and protected place/person (be it a parent, teacher, etc).
The betrayal, on multiple levels, is astounding and horrifying.
Don’t believe me?
Try this: Cause those around you to purposely ignore your presence, the other adults you see as valuable for one reason or another, in your daily life. Now, make it so you cannot stop their lack of or refusal to acknowledge you (otherwise known as “removal of positive reinforcement”) until you conform to their will and wishes, or until you regain their approval in some way (if you are capable). Tell me this is not damaging. Tell me this doesn’t hurt you. Tell me that it doesn’t make you squirm, angry, resentful, vengeful, and ultimately needy. I dare you to try.
Now, take that one step further and view the same scenario through the eyes of an under/undeveloped child, inexperienced in social and emotional behavior patterns, still forming a fundamental sense of self and confidence, not capable of fully understanding why, or what they have done to loose the approval of others that resulted in this forced rejection and isolation. (May bet is that if you use timeouts, or spanking for that matter, you do not fully disclose pertinent thoughts to your child, as that might just give them too much knowledge to use against you at some point, so there is a good chance that the child is not fully aware of all aspects of their infraction.)
My take? Smacking a child may possibly cause less scarring than using timeouts/ostracism, and you all know what I think about using violence and spanking, smacking, hitting, whipping, or using any sort of like action – that being to strike, in any manner. The reason is simple: Spanking causes humiliation, fear, and physical pain. Ostracism causes all the same, in addition to a loss of perceived self value, loss of approval, pain of rejection, fear of isolation, and the prevention of remedy (while they sit there thinking about what they’ve done, they are effectively prevented from generating a resolution or remedy). The amount of psychological scarring and damage is doubled.
Please understand that if I am made aware of your choice to hit your child, and you’re within arm’s reach of me, I will hit you in the exact manner and force you used on them. And then… maybe I’ll ignore you after, just to make sure you get the full effect of the devaluing and dismissal.
Ok, here we go……
I have had parents tell me that using timeouts is an excellent option for them, it gets great results. I cringe.. if you understand anything about me, you know that first and foremost, I believe it paramount that we raise our children with intelligence, the ability to reason and understand their world, respect for their world (this includes those who are in a position to care and provide for them), and a curiosity to explore, develop, and learn. THE moment I hear a parent tell me that they’ve figured out a system to manipulate their child, for the sake of their own will and desire, regardless of why or what, I start to ache for their little one. Then, I find out they hit them (ok, spank – really, show me what the physical action of a spanking is, now repeat the action with the same force using the same tool either against a piece of foam like the kind you use in the base of a fake plant, or a brick wall if you’re brave and dumb enough. It’s the same action as hitting, and when the object makes contact, let’s see what happens). OR I find out they faithfully don’t spank, “would never dream of it, that’s awful and abusive”, but oh yes, they definitely use timeouts, otherwise known as rejection, which includes the transmission of obvious disapproval, and then of course the torturous forced isolation aspect. Yes, that’s a great solution.
That same parent, in their next breath, ridicules their child passively, dishonors their child’s autonomy and dignity by speaking about them as if they are less, and typically though standing right there, the parent behaves as if the child is not in the room. Then, as if to redeem themselves in the face of, well, my face, which is typically by then contorted and unable to hide the pain it feels due to the unavoidable sense of compassion and dismay I feel for the child, they begin to offer semi-relevant praise “about” their child, that they sort of direct through their child in hopes that I’ll buy it and encourage them that they’re really a great parent after all. All the while, their child is standing there knowing full well that the praise is empty, that it has a hitch or some sort of catch and they’ll hear about it as soon as I’m not in the room, and that their parent will insist they acknowledge the efforts and praise offered, as if it is an obligation for the child to also validate the parent, as the parent insisted I do.
But I don’t. And to date, only one parent has stood their ground long enough to start asking me why I won’t buy into their ploy and help them feel good about themselves, so that their kid is forced to do the same thing… Only one parent has ever had the courage to question my refusal to help them make their child feel inferior, of course that’s not really what they want, they just want to be superior.
The parent that asked me why it was that it seemed as though I appeared to think they were full of shit, is the same parent that an hour later broke down in front of their child, crying, while sitting on the floor in front of the child, begging the child to forgive him for his arrogance, sense of entitlement, and gross oversight of the true value of his child. The child responded with compassion and bewilderment, and didn’t say much.
The two left that night, together, connected in a way they’d never been, with a mutual respect present that was brand new. The child admired the parent, though he was confused and didn’t seem very trusting or certain of the situation. The parent discovered the immense worth and complexity of his child, and found that he too held a high level of admiration for the child, it had just been hiding under the surface for years – 9 years to be exact (the child was 10 years old).
I heard from this father about a month ago, his child is now 12. This father is still struggling with allowing himself to truly acknowledge and respect his child’s autonomy and worth. He is driven to seek reasons and actions that justify him feeling and thinking this way, before he demonstrates this belief to his child.
We talked about this concern and the father indicated that he, himself, held a deep resentment toward his own parents and other care givers for never allowing him to feel as though he was a legitimate and useful contributor, simply because he was nothing more than a child. He grew up assuming that all children were nothing more than something to be dealt with, tolerated until they’re grown, appreciated for what they do that pleases the adult (and in truth, mimics the adult’s preferences), but not too highly appreciated lest the child become arrogant… it goes on and on.
It’s a simple point of attributing a lessor worth and diminished degree of legitimacy to a person, simply because of their age. We, as a human race, do this to each other based on ethnicity, language, religion, wealth, and gender. We’d be truly crazy hypocrites if we didn’t do the same thing because of age too. Come on, really.. we’re not that dumb, are we?
The positive side the father reported, however, was that his child and he shared a mutual respect for each other, and instead of punishment for error, the father had learned to use logic, reason, natural consequence, and give his child room to error, room to disagree, room to explore and discover, room to question and seek guidance – instead of shoving it down the child’s throat, and room to return respect and admiration for the father that can so deeply love, if he allows himself to be that vulnerable.
The real catch is, this father changed not only the dynamics of his relationship with his then pre-teen child, but that decision affected his relationship with the child’s mother immensely and brought the two parents back together in a mutual love and respect that neither had ever experienced in their former relationship together. Now, each member of this family knows they are valued, appreciated for who they are and what they think, admired for their efforts and dedication, and respected because they are, not because of what they do or don’t. Love found a place to call home and it took root. And this kid, let me tell you, is one emotionally healthy, intelligent, and confident kid, with a boatload of personal integrity and ability to demonstrate compassion and dedication like none I’ve recently seen or known, of the same age.
Now, to discuss specifically the harm and damage that is the actual result of using a timeout punishment system – quite possibly the most poignant and intelligent perspective I have ever come across regarding the use of timeouts:
What you probably didn’t realize is that the silent treatment is a form of ostracism. When someone is ostracized it affects the part of their brain called the anterior cingulate cortex. Do you know what the anterior cingulate cortex does?
The anterior cingulate cortex is the part of the brain that detects pain. When you give someone the silent treatment you are causing that person physical pain. Simply by ignoring someone else’s existence you can inflict pain on them. This is what the ever popular “time out” with a child is so effective. The child feels ostracized, therefore is feeling pain even though no physical pain was inflicted on them, and therefor they want to behave so they don’t have to feel that way again.
The silent treatment can be a very destructive behavior when it involves personal relationships. Let’s say with a husband and wife for instance. The silent treatment breeds bitterness on both ends and it borders on emotional abuse… I’m not making that up to be dramatic. That’s what “they” say.
Then, we take a look at this from another angle –
… on his first day, I witnessed the teacher giving a 4 yo boy a time-out for grabbing a toy from another child. They made him go and sit by himself on a chair away from the other kids and told him to “think about what he had done”. Then they eventually led him back to the group, and said, “next time you want a toy, you will use your…” and he said right on queu, “…words”. So obviously this is not the first time it has happened. I was just shocked. I was told in my tour they didn’t use time-outs. Apparently they do. They didn’t speak meanly, they were calm, but everyone was staring and I felt bad for him. I felt he was humiliated a little, ostracized, singled out.
S O U R C E Go read the rest of this. The article is a bit choppy, but insightful.
Research suggests that ostracism is an effective form of controlling contranormative behaviors, punishing deviance, and increasing in-group cohesion (Alexander 1986; Barner-Barry, 1986; Basso, 1972; Boehm, 1986; Mahdi, 1986). For example ostracism is still one of the more common methods used to discipline young children, by parents and teachers alike. The issue of enforcing time outs, in schools and special education programs alike, has been discussed at length by social psychologists. The common denominator of most forms of time-out is the reduction of social attention. But this can be carried out in a number of ways, from physically relocating the child to a time-out room, to systematically ignoring the child who remains the same social environment (Brooks, Perry, & Hingerty, 1992; Heron, 1987). It has yet to be determined as to whether time-outs are a beneficial form of discipline.
Note #2 – the ancient Greece part – I added a bit of something to the definition.
The use of withdrawal and refusal is a coping mechanism and learned behavior by someone who was not permitted to experience his or her feelings in safety, likely beginning in childhood. It is a damage response. It is also what these emotionally crippled people employ as a defensive, damage control device.
The person who uses this control technique does so often out of a feeling of hopelessness; they feel they have no other recourse. And many do not as they simply lack the emotional skills necessary to use two-way, emotionally open communication. They are terrified of being open because that is where they’re vulnerable. Chances are, as kids, the parental environment was one of emotional instability, covert retaliation, and continued manipulation and diminishing (which causes a hypersensitivity to it in the future).
The resulting adult will avoid these abuses, even if only perceived, using the only method of control they were able to generate as children: Silence and withdrawal (read internalizing). In this state, the emotional abuser can’t keep getting to them and the tables are turned. The trouble is, this behavior becomes a conditioned response that outlives its usefulness and is continued into the adult’s future relationships, where he or she then perpetrates the damdge instead of being the victim of it. And in all honesty, they self damage, but will rarely become aware of it.
Understand me clearly, the person who believes themself to be whole and fully functional but then employs this control technique is not whole, they are damaged. Internal scars and survival techniques are at play, deep beneath the surface. These people often live with partners who rountinely feel as though they must be crazy, because along with the harm done to the receiving end of the silent treatment is often a distortion of reality by the one who has withdrawn. The act of withdrawal is often accompanied by a very covert shift of blame. This can occur in situations where there was not even reasonable cause for any blame to exist in the eyes of the partner who doesn’t employ the technique. There is a cycle going here.
If you rountinely find yourself using the withdrawal and internalization method, you know that all the stuff you shovel down inside just stays there, piling up. Just like it did as a child. The difference now is that you could be on a level playing field emotionally with those you love and/or live with. You could choose to seek help in gaining healthy coping mechanisms and helpful methods of interaction at such intimate and vulnerable states as are created in committed relationships. You could choose to save yourself future hurt, spare your partner the anguish you cause them, and prevent any future generation you create from the damage. You can choose to stop the cycle of pain and harm, for all involved, including you. But chances are without that pain, conflict, it whatever causes the weight of your burden to remain, you would be lost. It would be foreign and therefore not safe for you to experience these sort of interactions with freedom to feel, security to explore, and trust that your partner doesn’t want to harm you. Fear of being hurt and harmed drives your reluctance, and for good reason, your fear is a learned response.
But you can change your responses. You can change perceptions and understanding. There is another option. An entirely other world that you could exist in that is safe and makes conflict useful. Where love and compassion are the ulterior motives. Trouble is that as long as you keep yourself securely in your hole, back against the wall, where you think you are safe, there is a huge likelihood you’ll never realize the love and compassion staring you in the face.
And the reason they will never see it is because they are indeed damaged souls. Deeply hurt during a time when they could not prevent it (childhood, naive first relationship, illness, etc). These people can change, but need help from an outside source that can teach them and help them develop the the tools they lack.
In the mean time, it you suffer the effects of another imposing their rejection, withdrawal, and/or isolation the best thing you can do is turn to education. Inform yourself of the patterns, the cycles, the experience of life through their eyes. If you can part ways, do so. If you are not in a position to separate and sever your relationship, find an educated source to talk to and locate your unending supply of inner strength. Most importantly, define your boundaries and set them at the place just in front of allowing yourself to become a victim.
Go -> SEE THIS (click)
Note #7 (and #8)
The title and description alone grab my attention and wake up the sexual side in my head.
I’m fascinated in a morbid sort of way about the details of just exactly how to “set up the scene” for a planned spanking. Now, you tell me how this could possibly be something beneficial to a child. Again, as stated before, I have never used spanking as an adult for sexual enjoyment, have never spanked my child, won’t ever spank my child, was spanked once with my pants down as a three year old, and have a healthy sex life (for the most part – I have a two year old folks, what can I say).
So, what is it, do you suppose, that is triggered in my head when I see the simplest of words arranged in the following ways?
Now, take a look at these letters: The first is a father, a widower who has two daughters, aged 16 and 12. This is horrendous and my heart breaks for these girls. Girls, if you ever happen to stumble upon this post, you are most welcome to contact me for support; I will network you with a plethora of people who will stand beside and behind you and give you a way to end the madness he’s forcing.
I am a 38 year-old widower with two daughters: 16 and 12. My younger daughter recently landed on your site and showed it to me. Thank you for providing such a well thought-out presentation. I find that I agree with most of what you say. But I have a couple of exceptions.
First, I don’t agree with your “same sex” spanking concepts. Yes, I recognize the danger: a father spanking his daughter might cause some sexual response. But a frank discussion about the difference between having feelings and acting on those feelings should deal with that issue. And these days, there’s so much homosexuality on the TV and elsewhere that I’m not sure “same sex” spankings wouldn’t face the same danger anyway.
My wife died 4 years ago. Even before that, whenever the girls needed a spanking I was the one who spanked them. The Bible holds fathers responsible for spanking their children (See Ephesians 6:4 for example). Abdicating that responsibility is not an option. As long as the father is in the home, it’s his job to do whatever spanking is needed.
Second, I see a problem with your definitions of cooperative and uncooperative children. My girls kind of fit your definition of cooperative children: they know that I love them and they agree that they need to be spanked when they misbehave. And they don’t generally “resist” being spanked for a very good reason: I use the “bare hand on bare bottom” method, but I have a little switch that I reserve for really serious misbehavior.
Once, when my older daughter was 15, she started trying to hit me while I was taking her up to the master bedroom for a spanking. I simply asked her, “Do I need to get The Switch?” Her reaction was a frantic “Nooooooo!” and there was no more problem with resistance.
AHHHHHRGHGHGHGHGHGH!!!!!!!!!!!!! That 15 year old girl is nothing short of a young woman and what this father is doing is terribly, terribly wrong. God, there goes my stomach (and God’s too) again. AND IN THE NAME OF GOD!!!
Twisted, stupid, DAMAGING, wrong!
If either of these two girls decided to tell their school counselor (given that it is a public school that doesn’t also have its head up its ass) that their father spanks them, especially bare, the spankings would cease. The father would come under investigation and the girls would be given ongoing support and counseling. I would throw the father into a pit with a bunch of gay men and let them spank him until he couldn’t manage himself anymore.
S O U R C E
If I were growing up today, Mother could post on parenting web forums about how “effective” spankings are as discipline for her daughters. She could brush aside concerns about emotional harm saying “an hour after I spank her, Carol is happily playing or doing her chores.” She could talk about my good grades in school. She could talk about how polite I am and respectful to my elders, and how she gets compliments from other adults about what a good girl I am in public. And if anyone tried to warn her that she might give her child a fetish, she could laugh and say, “Carol would never turn out like that. She hates to be spanked!” And nothing she said would be a lie.
Now I am retired, unmarried, childless, on medication for depression. At a tender age I used my budding sexuality to cope with something I didn’t know how else to cope with. And it has left its mark on me forever. I’ve been paying the price all my life and I will never stop paying. I am unmarried because the circuits in my brain that should have been used for romance were vandalized by spankings instead. I am childless because I never married. So there is a direct link between my spankings, how I coped with them, and my being sexually abnormal, and hence never marrying and having any children of my own.
Not all of the harm is sexual in nature. An “it made me what I am today” pattern emerges whenever someone unexpectedly confronts me in an angry way about something I did. I have a bad habit of saying the first rationalization that pops into my mind, sometimes even lying. It just blurts itself out of me. And I don’t know how to change. It goes back so far. It is a habit I learned as a preschooler that sometimes saved me from a bottom warming. It usually didn’t, but something that works only occasionally is better than nothing at all.
Another lifelong bad effect of my spankings is that when someone orders me to do something in a stern authoritarian voice, I usually just cave in and do it even if I don’t feel right about what I am doing. It just happens, seemingly by itself. And it all goes back to my earliest years. Growing up in my “traditional values” family, children did as they were told and didn’t talk back. If you did, Mommy would turn you across her knee, pull down your panties and “teach you a lesson” right then and there. I sure learned my lessons! The trouble is, how do you unlearn that lesson as a grownup out in the world who has to stand up for herself? I just hate myself now whenever I realize that once again I let myself be someone’s doormat.
Here are some interesting reads – they are written for the purpose of satisfying the erotic desires of adults, and are on the topic of spanking. Now, call me crazy, but the letters found on the Chastise With Love site, the descriptions for technique and position, and the fictional accounts found below seem to have an eerie similarity.
See what it does to you.
Abuse is any behavior that is designed to control and subjugate another human being through the use of fear, humiliation, intimidation, guilt, coercion, manipulation etc. Emotional abuse is any kind of abuse that is emotional rather than physical in nature. It can include anything from verbal abuse and constant criticism to more subtle tactics, such as repeated disapproval or even the refusal to ever be pleased.
Emotional abuse is like brain washing in that it systematically wears away at the victim’s self-confidence, sense of self-worth, trust in their own perceptions, and self-concept. Whether it is done by constant berating and belittling, by intimidation, or under the guise of “guidance,” “teaching”, or “advice,” the results are similar. Eventually, the recipient of the abuse loses all sense of self and remnants of personal value. Emotional abuse cuts to the very core of a person, creating scars that may be far deeper and more lasting that physical ones. In fact there is research to this effect. With emotional abuse, the insults, insinuations, criticism and accusations slowly eat away at the victim’s self-esteem until she is incapable of judging the situation realistically. She has become so beaten down emotionally that she blames herself for the abuse. Her self-esteem is so low that she clings to the abuser.
Emotional abuse victims can become so convinced that they are worthless that they believe that no one else could want them. They stay in abusive situations because they believe they have nowhere else to go. Their ultimate fear is being all alone.
(Source is Title Link)
No one likes being treated like dirt
- Feeling disrespected.
- A loss of stature or image.
- An image change reflecting a decrease in what others believe about your stature.
- Induced shame
- To reduce the pride or fail to recognize the dignity of another
- An event perceived to cause loss of honor and induce shame.
- Feeling powerless.
- Being unjustly forced into a degrading position.
- Ridicule, scorn, contempt or other treatment at the hands of others
Root: from Latin humilis, low, lowly, from humus, ground. Literally, “reducing to dirt”.
Synonyms include losing face, being made to feel like a fool, feeling foolish, hurt, disgraced, indignity, put-down, debased, dejected, denigrated, dishonored, disrespected, dis’ed, defamed, humbled, scorned, slighted, slurred, shamed, mortified, rejected, being laughed at. While humility is considered a strength, humiliation is hurtful; the distinction pivots on autonomy.
Appreciation is the opposite of humiliation.
Humiliation involves an event that demonstrates unequal power in a relationship where you are in the inferior position and unjustly diminished. Often the painful experience is vividly remembered for a long time. Your vindictive passions are aroused and a humiliated fury may result. There are three involved parties: 1) the perpetrator exercising power, 2) the victim who is shown powerless and therefore humiliated, and 3) the witness or observers to the event.
Because of the powerlessness and lack of control that it exposes, humiliation may lead to anxiety.
is recognizing and accepting our own limitations based on an accurate and modest estimate of our importance and significance. The humble person recognizes he is one among the six billion interdependentpeople on this earth, earth is one planet circling the sun, and our sun is one of a billion stars in the presently known universe. Because of this broad and sound perspective on her significance, the truly humble person cannot be humiliated.
Humiliation and Shame
The essential distinction between humiliation and shame is this: you agree with shame and you disagree with humiliation. Humiliation is suffering an insult. If you judge the insult to be credible, then you feel shame. Others can insult and humiliate you, but you will only feel shame if your self-image is reduced; and that requires your own assessment and decision. A person who is insecure about their genuine stature is more prone to feeling shame as a result of an insult. This is because they give more credibility to what others think of them than to what they think of themselves. This can result in fragile self-esteem.
People believe they deserve their shame, they do not believe they deserve their humiliation. Humiliation is seen as unjust.
Forms of Humiliation
Humans have many ways to slight others and humiliate them. For example:
- Overlooking someone, taking them for granted, ignoring them, giving them the silent treatment, treating them as invisible, or making them wait unnecessarily for you,
- Rejecting someone, holding them distant, abandoned, or isolated,
- Withholding acknowledgement, denying recognition, manipulating recognition,
- Domination, control, manipulation, abandonment,
- Threats or abuse including: verbal (e.g. name calling), physical, psychological, or sexual,
- Assault, attack, or injury
- Betrayal, or being cheated, lied to, defrauded, suckered, or duped,
- Losing a dominance contest. Being forced to submit.
- Having safety or security reduced by intimidation or threat,
- Dismissing, discounting, or silencing your story,
- Losing basic personal freedoms such a mobility, access, or autonomy; being controlled, dominated, intruded on, exploited, or manipulated,
(from) MarkAugust 5, 2010 7:01 pm
As a child who was spanked and later as a parent who has chosen to spank, I see nothing sexual about spanking. What made spanking effective as a discipline tool for me as a child is its dramatic nature. Grounding may ultimately hurt many children worse. However, telling me I was going to be grounded carried nowhere near the emotional connotation for me as hearing that I was going to get a spanking. When I heard that I would be spanked, my throat would get tight and I would feel genuine fear.
I have tried to resort to other punishments for my own children besides spanking for several reasons. First, any punishment that is used too much becomes ineffective. Second, I would prefer to discipline without using the kind of physical force necessary when you spank. Three, I would prefer to give out a punishment that doesn’t leave my children crying.
Even so, I have found a couple of situations as a parent that I felt really called for a spanking. One involved a situation when my eight year old son insisted on playing with firecrackers and a friend when he had been told not to do so. Another involved a situation with the same son a couple of years later where he took a spray paint can and with the help of two friends sprayed some bad words on the wall of a house that was for sale. His misconduct here involved lying about where he was and taking a spray paint can from an open garage of a neighbor. Other discipline was used as well. However, I felt nothing could have conveyed my message as effectively as an over-the-knee spanking of his butt.
I disagree with bare butt spanking. Its unnecessary. I have taken down their pants though and spanked them in their underwear. It preserves their modesty and still causes enough embarrassment that they think long and hard about what they’ve done.
Thank you for your remarks and insight. It is encouraging to hear the voice of a father who is actively parenting his children. I want to take the opportunity to reply to your thread because I think it raises a couple of interesting and thought provoking concepts.
First, I’d like to address your concluding remarks on the effectiveness of embarrassment as punishment, and the long and far reaching effects it has on children, and adults. I’m going to site a few articles and tie together a couple thoughts on the subject; I welcome responses.
Please review the following posts/articles:
“Children should not be the scapegoats of adults’ painful experiences. The claim that mild punishments (slaps or smacks) have no detrimental effects is still widespread because we got this message very early from our parents who had taken it over from their own parents. This conviction helped the child to minimize his suffering and to endure it. Unfortunately, the main damage it causes is precisely our numbness as well as the lack of sensitivity for our children’s pain. The result of the broad dissemination of this damage is that each successive generation is subjected to the tragic effects of seemingly harmless “correction”. Many parents still think: What didn’t hurt me can’t hurt my child. They don’t realize that their conclusion is wrong because they never challenged their assumption.” S O U R C E
Next, I’d like to draw a connection for some of you that perhaps you’ve not yet considered. The act of punishing our children’s deeds by use of spanking, grounding, or time out is something that doesn’t make sense to me because the consequence has nothing to do with the offense. Let me paint a picture for you that addresses this concept from one angle.
Our judicial system is full of people who have done something that the community views as wrong. They’re stuck in a cell, and our taxes basically keep them out of our way because of what they have done. Most of them will never have to confront the victim of their wrong doing, nor will they be expected to make reparation. And if reparation is ordered it is very unlikely it will have any direct correlation to the actual crime they committed, and even less chance that the offender will be expected to make any personal reparation to their victim. This lack of expectation of one to take personal responsibility has a lot to do with a given individual’s propensity to continue to commit crimes throughout his or her life.
There is a movement among some judicial systems to pave a path of justice and reparation, instead of simply trapping the offender. In Colorado, there is a group called Restorative Justice and their goal is to cause offenders to take personal responsibility, make personal reparation, and ultimately reintegrate into the community a whole person who is then capable of not continuing in their ways of difficulty because they wholly understand what harm it does. In the few cases where the individual is unable to rehabilitate and reintegrate satisfactorily, the typical judicial recourses are employed and basically, the system gives up on them.
My contention is that spanking, grounding, and other forms of punishment (this is not discipline, these are punishments) are ineffective in the long run because they are in essence no better than sticking the offender in a box and saying, “You did something bad, now sit here and think about it until the judge thinks you’ve thought long enough.” And how will that judge know? Recommendations from those who control this individual’s every move. They see how the individual responds and chooses to behave in this controlled environment with instant psychological and sometimes physical consequences that sometimes fit their actions. Further, the judge asks the person what he’s been thinking about while stuck in this box and told to think, which if he had done in the first place, he wouldn’t have been stuck in the box in the first place… so if he’d been able to figure things out properly on his own then, or after his incarceration, we wouldn’t have repeat offenders.
This, alas, is not how it works most of the time. In my opinion, we treat offenders much in the same way parents who use certain forms of punishment do. Natural consequences don’t apply, authority derived and determined punishments are instead delivered. And the only connection the offender is allowed to conclude is the authority figure decided I did something wrong, so they’re going to punish me in a way that satisfies them, but doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with whatever I did, oh and it will humiliate me, which is the only thing I will remember (unless there is physical pain), but chances are I’ll forget what that humiliation was really for… just that on that day, I lost another piece of me and my self-confidence.
That said, I want to just throw out a couple of alternative ideas regarding the two incidents you described where you felt it appropriate to spank your son:
For the offense of playing with fireworks after having been warned against it, AND after (your son) having been informed of the reasons for the warning (i.e., dangers to self, to others, to property – not just because mom/dad said so), I submit the child be taken for a session of volunteering at the Burn Unit at Children’s hospital. Such an event will offer the offending child a very real world and tangible experience to call upon when decided whether to involve himself with the play of fireworks in the future. And if you can get the other child’s parents to agree, have them both go at least twice. (Note: Discussing the situation with the adult coordinators in advance of arriving to volunteer, and in the absence of your child, will allow you to censor appropriately for your child’s age and sensabilities.)
This sort of experience gives the kids the chance to make the very real connection what fire and like items can do to a human child, and they won’t forget what they learn. They will have the opportunity to turn the experience into good for the community as well. Instead of humiliation they will gain wisdom and a sense of pride for their contribution and new found knowledge. This is something useful for your future and theirs, and in ways that may not be immediately obvious.
Responding with this sort of discpline allows you, the parent, to gain the same end result you’re after – the kids stop being careless with really dangerous stuff. They, the children, grow in maturity, wisdom, compassion, and self control, instead of learning how to play the game better and just not get caught the next time.
It is then the continued responsibility of the parent to enforce the experience by discussing any concerns or thoughts the child might have, perhaps facilitating a friendship between your child and one that has suffered a burn (if there is a need for an ongoing reminder of real world consequences).
I realize this sounds like a ton of work and time commitment for the parent, and how much easier would it be to get your way by spanking once, and assuming the humiliation will sit long enough that they’ll not commit the same offense ever again. But you and I both know that the moment your son is old enough to stare that humiliation in the face and turn it back on you in rebellion, and the moment he’s old enough to figure out how to control his time and resources (I wager, about 14 years of age), he will again do exactly what you have insisted he not. He will do it because of his curiosity that has been intensified by it being put off limits, and because he is strong enough to reject the humiliation you put on him. He may also be reluctant every year the country uses fireworks as a celebration, and may not understand why he has these feelings, but you will know that they stem from the humiliation that his mind unconsciously attaches to the objects.
Alternately, he will never challenge you and will follow in blind obedience, and our world will have another drone.
Forgive me for my bluntness, but if you’ve read any of my posts, you’re probably well aware of it already.
Concerning the spray paint incident… My gut reaction is that your son is acting in a pattern and if it were me, I’d be trying very hard to figure out what was behind/beneath his actions (say, perhaps any/all of the wrong doings over the last 5 years) and address the source before I did anything else (literally, before dinner, before tomorrow, whatever). However, as a response to the incident, instead of spanking him and telling him that I, the authority figure, disapproved of his choices, I’d again allow real world consequences to prevail, and real world lessons to be learned.
In the event that my child made the decision to be so disrespectful of another’s property, I would begin by asking him just that, “Why do you think it is you don’t have more respect for these people, and the things they have that matter to them?” Then, I would listen to his response. Very intently. I would continue to ask him questions that encouraged his thoughts and feelings, and at each response I would not respond with my own, but acknowledge his words and remember well what he is communicating (and what isn’t successfully being transmitted, but is there nonetheless).
Then, I would explain to my child that he must make reparation for the damage he chose to cause. Further, I would plainly inform my child, in the presence of the other child, that they have both made decisions that are now going to prevent them from spending unsupervised time together for the forseeable future. Then, I would inform him that his reparation would incude him either cleaning the marks off the house himself, or if that was not possible, he would join the professional and do whatever the professional would have him do to repair the damage. If new siding or something similar were necessary, he would offer whatever money he had to pay for it. He and I would take our time to help the home owner obtain whatever supplies they might need, and do any of the work they’d allow us to do to repair (us, yes us, meaning my offending child and me, the parent ultimately responsible). If my son’s funds were insufficient and mine had to be tapped, my son would be in my debt and he would commence working whatever was necessary to gain the real money necessary to repay me.
My son would be as present as the owners would allow, and if they wouldn’t allow it, he’d be at the next Habitat for Humanity opportunity, or something similar, doing the same physical work related to building/caring for a house. AND it would be his hands that would hurt because of a splinter, having to grip a hammer for a long time, or whatever other discomfort just comes along with that sort of work (hot sun, standing for a long time, carrying heavy stuff back and forth, tending to the needs of the grown ups who can do what he cannot, etc).
Additionally, for the second part of his offense, his room would be left open for strangers to come visit during a garage sale (this would be a surprise to him). If there were many valuable items that would cost me, I would prearrange a visit from some neighbors that he didn’t know, and ask them to take what they wish from a selection of items that will get the point across to him, but not hurt my pocket. And no, I would not then replace the items out of my own pocket.
Finally, I would address what was behind his choice of words. What satisfaction did he gain from the selection of words he chose? Does he perhaps harbor some resentment toward these people?? Has he made some sort of judgement of them and felt the need to passively tell them? Were these words specifically “taboo” according to his parents, and therefore if he managed to not get caught, would the resulting level of satisfaction and passive statement made be worth the risk?
When our children act out, whatever their age, we must take a moment to look inward. Chances are, there is something there we could improve, change, or cease that would make a difference in our children. However, the younger they are when we take this responsibility and awareness upon ourselves, the better chance for success and well developed children in their older years.
– I was three years old when my mother first spanked me, and I lost a considerable amount of respect for her intelligence and compassion that day. I had lied about taking some stickers off the refrigerator, and as a result I was forced to endure the humiliation of being bent over her knee. I complied, I complained, and I learned that next time either lie better or don’t get caught. Did I mention I was three?
The kicker was that I didn’t know ahead of taking the stickers that it would matter, but when my mom confronted me I sensed that she thought what I had done was wrong, so I responded because I didn’t want to feel her disapproval. Even though I hadn’t intentionally disobeyed an order or expectation, I knew I would suffer her disapproval anyway if I fessed up. So, my tiny 3 years of experience prevailed and in my effort to not have her disapprove of something I had done with no malicious or rebellious intent, I figured my best option was to pretend I didn’t know what she was talking about thereby preventing her disapproval of ME specifically. I hoped that she would just be sad that the stickers weren’t there anymore and leave it at that… and maybe give me a chance to return them since it had become apparent it mattered to her.
No such luck. She cornered me, I lied, she countered, I gave in, she spanked me, I was humiliated, she tried to reconcile, I rejected her, she left me alone, I drew my own conclusions and you know what, I don’t give a hoot about stickers anymore – they annoy me. Now, my two year old loves them and sticks them everywhere! My mother uses them as a reward and gift for her grand daughter. I think it’s great because it’s an activity they mutually enjoy and share untarnished between the two of them. But you will never find a single sticker or even a magnet that resembles one on my fridge, as it would serve as a reminder of a dark and brooding feeling inside of me that turned to resentment toward my mother. A small amount of resentment, perhaps, but there just the same.
That was the one and only time my mother ever spanked me. Maybe she was wiser than I thought she was.
Merriam-Webster’s dictionary lists the definition of discipline as:
2. obsolete: instruction
3. a field of study
4. training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
Why is punishment listed as the first definition and the Latin root meaningto teach has become obsolete?
I suspect that this description perfectly mirrors our current parenting paradigm in which generation after generation has passed down parenting discipline advice and techniques based on cycles of punishments and rewards, dangling carrots and taking away privileges and love in an attempt to modify behavior. This philosophy of discipline has not taken us very far.
by Alice Miller
Many researchers have already proved that corporal punishment on children may indeed produce obedience in the short term but will have serious negative consequences on their character and behavior. Only if there was at least one single person who loved and understood the child, the disastrous development toward later crimes and illnesses could be prevented. During their whole childhood, dictators like Hitler, Stalin or Mao never came across such a helping witness. They learned very early to glorify cruelty and hypocrisy and to justify them while committing crimes on millions of people. Millions of others, because also exposed to physical maltreatment in childhood, helped them to do so without the slightest remorse.
Children should not be the scapegoats of adults’ painful experiences. The claim that mild punishments (slaps or smacks) have no detrimental effects is still widespread because we got this message very early from our parents who had taken it over from their own parents. This conviction helped the child to minimize his suffering and to endure it. Unfortunately, the main damage it causes is precisely our numbness as well as the lack of sensitivity for our children’s pain. The result of the broad dissemination of this damage is that each successive generation is subjected to the tragic effects of seemingly harmless “correction”. Many parents still think: What didn’t hurt me can’t hurt my child. They don’t realize that their conclusion is wrong because they never challenged their assumption.
When in Sweden legislation laws prohibiting corporal punishment were launched in 1978, 70% of the citizens asked for their opinion were against it. In 1997, the figure had dropped to 10%. These statistics show that the mentality of the Swedish population has radically changed in the course of a mere 20 years. A destructive tradition of millennia has been done away with thanks to this legislation.
It is imperative to launch legislation prohibiting corporal punishment all over the world. It does not set out to incriminate anyone but is designed to have a protective and informative function for parents. Sanctions could simply take the form of the obligation for parents to internalize information on the consequences of corporal punishment available today. Information on the “well-meant smack” should therefore be broadcasted to all, since unconscious education to violence takes its roots very early and inflicts disastrous imprints. The vital interests of society as a whole are at stake.
“Punishment Does Not Work”
Copyright © Alice Miller, 1998